The Way of Desolation

2007-02-03

map can't be downloaded... o(>.<)o

2006-09-14

Wow. I wasn't expecting that. Thanks, VG.

Sometimes things just need a bit of work after the initial release. I like to think that the map has improved on a number of levels since 1-0 and I'm pretty happy with where it is now.

VGsatomi

2006-09-13

Putting forth the effort to balance the game to suit more varying number of players. Thats all I was asking for this whole time.

Thank you for deciding to do it.

Awarded Director's Choice Award.
-VGsatomi

CHUNK

2006-07-23

Changelog for Version 1.9
-Compressed the models and art a bit to make the file smaller
-Fixed some minor issues with buff effects

Updated to 1-8
Changlog:
-Fixed a minor issue with the rematch dialog triggers

Updated to 1-7
Changelog:
-Added click-me quick-tooltips to every object. You can quickly read what obstacles, obelisks, orbs, and even enemy units do in the game by clicking on them and reading the message that pops up.

-Worked on the balancing for gaining levels a bit more which allowed me to make some adjustments for fewer players. Now the game compensates for starting (or restarting) with 2 or 3 players by immediately leveling the starting units (4 players -> level 1, 3 players -> level 2, 2 players -> level 3). We've tested the difficulty under these conditions and the game is harder with fewer players, but still completely playable (even with 2).

-Added a quick rematch/replay option, so that if you lose, you can opt to restart the game. Players who opt not to restart will be defeated and the game will adjust to fewer players.

CHUNK

2006-07-13

1-6 fixes an issue with the solo/playtest mode that I forgot to change before posting 1-5. Nothing else was changed; it should work correctly now.

CHUNK

2006-07-12

I was only trying to encourage you to improve your map, as well as pass on the message that making a required maximum # of players is not a good way to make maps.

Actually, I appreciate most aspects of this conversation, and in general I think it has been helpful for making some improvements to the map (and I mentioned this (and you) in the credits for v1-5). If nothing else, perhaps it will give subsequent downloaders a glimpse of the kind of careful, deliberate thinking involved in making a map that usually passes unnoticed.

In general, I think it is clear that I agree with some of your comments about scaling maps, but I disagree with the approach of applying the same measuring stick to all types of maps under all types of situations. As a rule of thumb, making a map accessible to a range of players is a good thing, but that doesn't make it a requirement for quality and it shouldn't (in my opinion) be a metric for that is applied universally or indiscriminately.

I play tested hundreds of maps from this site, and almost all the time when a map has no versaility, its due to sheer laziness of the author.

An understandable conclusion, but I almost never do things out of laziness and I will submit to you that the map is playable/winnable with 3 players (with experience) as well as 4 - a scenario that I have been trying to reach prior to even posting the initial version here - and I have no interest in making it winnable (aside from the practice mode) for single players, making the 'flaw' you are concerned about primarily that fact that it isn't playable/winnable with 2 players. That's a pretty small window to generate so much discussion about range in playability.

Reducing the number of spawns was only one idea. I never said that was the only way to do it in order to balance out gameplay for fewer players.

True, but you have before and did again, in this response, suggest that it is a simple matter to fix. I have stated all along that it isn't such a simple matter, and I have tried to point out why this is the case, but more importantly, that I don't want to make it completely scalable - I want it to be a map where you develop teamwork and grow to trust your team and where all of the players need to have the skills to win it.

Recall TD maps like Skibi TD? Ones that could be played with any number of players? They do exist, and those are the ones that are the most highly regarded.

I also worked closely with Shvegait to design some elements of the combat system - you'll recall his highly-regarded TD Burbenog isn't scalable and is one of the most popular TDs ever made. There are examples for successful models on both ends of the spectrum.

This map is a near-perfect map. I just didnt want to see it go to waste over something that could be fixed so easily. It can just be better with a few small changes.

Thanks for the compliment. There is always some room for improvement - but for this particular map (at least at this point) I don't view making it playable for 2 people as an improvement. I don't necessarily think it would make the map worse, at least if it done correctly, but it would take something away from my concept of how it should be played.

I view this discussion we have had as an amicable disagreement between 2 people with different perceptions of the concept of a game. I didn't take your comments personally (and I hope you haven't taken mine that way). I'd like to see you give it a serious chance with 3 or 4 players before drawing a conclusion about the concept. If you can't find 2 extra people who will sit through the download (or even if you can), I would like to invite you to come to Clan TDG@Azeroth and play a few games of it with us. If you aren't interested or are too busy with other responsibilities, that's fine, but the people in my clan who helped to develop the balance of this map absolutely love playing it (probably moreso than anything I've made before); we'll lose 6 games in a row and still want to play it again. It's challenging, fun, and addictive - and I would like you to experience it a little as it was meant to be played. Who knows, perhaps you'll forget about your concerns over the lack of two-player team gameplay.

VGsatomi

2006-07-12

I certainly never meant for my feedback to be considered "badgering". I was only trying to encourage you to improve your map, as well as pass on the message that making a required maximum # of players is not a good way to make maps. If it is really bothering you, then this will be the last I will post on this topic. I play tested hundreds of maps from this site, and almost all the time when a map has no versaility, its due to sheer laziness of the author. You may have made it this way intentionally, but many of your potential players may not take it that way. At least thats not how I took it when I play tested it.

Reducing the number of spawns was only one idea. I never said that was the only way to do it in order to balance out gameplay for fewer players. Sorry if I came off that way. There are other ways of doing it as well, such as maybe adding more mana totals or reducing enemy attack power, even adding AI. Another really easyt way would be setting handicaps on the enemy force (i.e. 4 plyaers= 100% enemy health, 3 players= 75%, 2 players =50%, 1 players =25% and so on...and it doesnt require you to reduce the number of enemies). There are plenty of ways of doing it without sacrificing gameplay, intensity or pace. Be creative. Yes, it requires play testing, but sometimes that is necessary to make good maps. I just didnt want to be one of those poeple who criticizes a map and doesnt offer any feefback in how to actually fix a problem.

"AoS maps lack versatility, tower wars lack versatility... "

They can be if they are well made, as many have been and as many are. Those who dont make their TD and AoS versatile get criticized by me, too. So dont think I'm picking on you. Recall TD maps like Skibi TD? Ones that could be played with any number of players? They do exist, and those are the ones that are the most highly regarded. This map is a near-perfect map. I just didnt want to see it go to waste over something that could be fixed so easily. It can just be better with a few small changes. It would not be as hard as you might think.

I look forward to the sequal. Good luck with it, though. Hopefully it wont suffer the same problem as this one.

CHUNK

2006-07-11

Making the map playable to more variable number of people would hamper gameplay? Your logic really confuses me.

Your assumption that all maps must be playable by all numbers of players equally is not something that I subscribe to, in this map or in general. By that metric, campaigns lack versatility, AoS maps lack versatility, tower wars lack versatility... Some things are simply designed for more than 1 or 2 players, and I don't see that as a flaw and I submit that most people wouldn't. Could you play baseball with 3 people per team? Sure, but the gameplay sucks. Is poker as fun with 2 people as it is with 4? Not every game needs to have the sort of flexibility you suggest that it must have.

In games where the components can be compartmentalized (example, every TD I have made) such that the gameplay is essentially the same with 1 as it is with 8, it makes perfect sense - and it should a common practice to make compartmentalized gameplay so that it is playable for a range of players. But in a game where everything depends upon your team gameplay, where elements are indivisibly grouped, the more you reduce the 'ideal' number of players, the worse the gameplay becomes.

Yes, some maps of these maps can and should still cater to fewer players where it is reasonable, but despite your persistent badgering of the idea of reducing the number of spawns to fit the players is the solution for this problem, I assure you that it isn't. Here's why, in a nutshell: Pace is the most critical element to the gameplay in this map. That may not have been so transparent to you, having played it with 2 players and not made it very far into the map, but I have played the map multiple times every day since it became playable and I promise you, if you destroy that pace, the game becomes boring, easy, and uninteresting.

An isometric reduction of the number of spawns would leave the map barren, with long pauses between combat sequences and despite what you suggest, doesn't make the map more 'playable'. A non-linear reduction in the number of spawns might be reasonable, and in theory might not hamper the gameplay as much, if it weren't for the following problems that result from inherited pace:

1) Terrain: The terrain has been designed to provide cycles of intense gameplay with intentional lulls so that players can basically have a couple of moments to recover from the action and assess where to go and how to do go about it. I cannot change the terrain to compensate for fewer players - so this element of the pace is pre-determined. Reducing the respawn rate cuts across all bottlenecks equally, creating an inherited change in the pace.

2) Abilties: Ward of Ice provides the players with a means of instantly killing a target. The ability itself can't be removed without destroying that element of the gameplay, where some situations require an emergency use of this ability. Cut the number of spawns down considerable and you've suddenly made the game far too easy - because players can just pass through large sections of the map freezing and slashing targets. While this is true of 4 players, as well, the mana pools have been designed to act as a control for this, forcing players to use this ability very sparingly or be unable to make that emergency save when they need it most and know that they will be able to recover the mana. As with the terrain, this ability + the mana pool + and the available mana in the game produce it's own inherited pace. If I reduce the spawns, I also need to recalibrate the mana pools and the availability of mana for each possible number of players. A feat that could be accomplished, but would require an intense amount of playtesting.

There are more reasonable approaches to solving this problem - if I really wanted to set it up for fewer players - I could handicap the health/regen of the demons and the Spirit, change the availability of health/mana/XP orbs (as I have done), and reduce the movement speed of the demons / increase the movement speed of spirt - all adjusted to the number of players. These solutions circumnavigate (or directly assault) the problems with inherited pace without creating problems with the gameplay, but they also would require intense playtesting to calibrate.

As an aside from this discussion, I did see the rationale of making the game so that it could be inspected by a single player, so that players who want to try and experiment with approaches and learn the best use of their array of abilities without a threat of being defeated nearly instantly - and as a result, added a feature that automatically makes it nearly impossible to lose when playing the game in single-player mode. I feel that this 'playtesting mode' will address the problem you suggested (for players who might want to inspect what the game is like, without a full house to play) that might turn new players away from the game.

VGsatomi

2006-07-11

I contend that simply reducing the number of demons spawned for fewer players wouldn't enhance the gameplay or make the map more popular, but rather would hamper the gameplay.

Making the map playable to more variable number of people would hamper gameplay? Your logic really confuses me.

CHUNK

2006-07-11

Changelog for Version 1.5

[Atmosphere]
-Female ninja names changed from ninja to kunoichi (a female ninja)
-Hero names changed to historical/traditional names for female ninjas
-Difficult menu names changed to japanese martial art names for student, master, grand master
-Hotkeys added to the voting dialog
-Color changes for many unit/ojbect names

[Gameplay]
-Solo gameplay - CHEAT MODE instantly activated (1P)
-Orb models added for yellow and purple orbs (my mdl edits)
-Orb release triggers changed to adjust to number of players
-XP Orb bonus (xp value) changed to adjust to the number of players
-Orb behavior changed to follow units that responsible for killing the target
-Killing unit mechanics changed to compensate for orb new behavior
-Type of orbs released (or potentially released) changed for some elements

[Abilities]
-Color changes for hotkeys, right-click listed for Attack
-Diving Slice mechanics changed to action script to allow hotkey queue in mid-air and allow the diving unit to be hit while airborn

Note: The wc3sear.ch uploading script shows this map as unprotected, but it includes custom UI functions that will not allow it to be opened with the standard world editor.

CHUNK

2006-07-09

So making the game completely unplayable for anything less then a full house nurtures gameplay?

I've spent a little time during the past week playing the map with 3 experienced people to test out whether the map is or isn't playable that way and of course I've also been altering the map a little to try and compensate somewhat for fewer players. As I mentioned, the solution doesn't (and in my opinion, shouldn't) include removing spawns, but rather changing the distribution of health/XP/mana orbs. Generally speaking, it seems to me that on the easiest difficulty, we could get quite far with 3 people (I suspect a couple more tries and we will get all the way through).

Its interesting when 2 players can only play about 2 and a half minutes before getting crushed?

The initial onslaught is probably the only point in the game where this is really problematic - and it also happens to be the area of the map where most of the obelisks (which spawn extra mana) are located. A suggestion: both players use Run/Ward/Attack and quickly reduce the number of demons then run and kill some obelisks to recover as much of the mana as possible. Regardless, I doubt even 2 experienced players who know what the other is planning on doing could make it through the entire map - but they could certainly make it past the initial attack; I can nearly make it past this stage playing solo every time (and in fact, lose mainly because I can't fend off the respawns and run out of mana).

As I mentioned, the difficulty level is set very high and it takes practice and strong teamwork, even with 4 players.

More times then not when I see people make full-house only maps, its doesnt encourage people to go out and try to get a full house so they can play, it discourages them from playimg the map altogether... Even DOTA players have troube getting full houses, no naturaly every other map suffers the same problem.

I don't mind this criticism, but I think your argument is a little disingenuous. DotA requires 10 players for a full house, this map requires 4. The following maps all require 10 players for a full house and I see them hosted regularly: Enmity Campaign (3.34Mb), DotA All-Stars (2.3Mb) and ToB (1.8Mb). This isn't to say that I feel having a large file size and requiring a full house is an equation for success, but rather that it isn't as prohibitive as you have suggested. If something is fun, people will wait the extra minute and smaller teams of people are not only easier to get, they are most likely to remain in the game longer if they wait through the download.

It may take much out of the intensity and action if you reduce the spawns or whatnot, but personally I would imagine higher numbers of people successfully playing the map would be more important.

On this, we can just agree to have a difference of opinion. I don't make maps for the sake of making them popular, and I never have. I make them for the sake of challenging myself to design interesting and unique things, for the sake of entertaining and challenging those who do play it (if it is to a smaller, more selective crowd, so be it), and for the sake of keeping the gameplay true to my vision. I'm not interested in popularity - I don't think much of what I make has that broad of an appeal to the average bnet player anyhow - I'm interested in designing the things that I would like to play.

Regardless of this, I contend that simply reducing the number of demons spawned for fewer players wouldn't enhance the gameplay or make the map more popular, but rather would hamper the gameplay. As I mentioned before, I am working on a way to get around this, and I am waiting until we can (at least) win with 3 before posting the new version, which is otherwise finished. I suspect this should happen sometime after this weekend's Mapathon contest, for which I am preparing a sequel to this map.

VGsatomi

2006-07-09

I think you can reason out that reducing the monster pool to match the player numbers isn't going to solve much, because there are too many other variables. I can adapt a solution that will fix it, but simply spawning fewer demons wouldn't make the game more playable with fewer players, it would make it less intense, less interesting, and would take away quite a bit from the gameplay, in my opinion.

S omaking the game completely unplayable for anything less then a full house nurtures gameplay? Its interesting when 2 players can only play about 2 and a half minutes before getting crushed? More times then not when I see people make full-house only maps, its doesnt encourage people to go out and try to get a full house so they can play, it discourages them from playimg the map altogether. Maybe things are different for your because you have an entire clan to help you with play testing, but for the average person downloading a map of thise site, it is not the case.

I wanted to make team play an important aspect of the map.

Ah, thats what they all say. I call it intentional lack of versatility- something that kills maps and people's interest in them.

this is the first of those that simply cannot be played solo. In this case, I don't see how it can be seen as a flaw, when it is part of the design.

When a map is unplayable, I see it as a flaw. Sorry. It may not be a flaw in design, but certainly a flaw in concept. A successful map can be catered to every situation- not just one. Even DOTA players have troube getting full houses, no naturaly every other map suffers the same problem. Taking a map with this big a file size, even if its only 4 players and making it full house only is no different then simply digging your maps own grave. It will not get hosted or re-hosted at a rate that will allow it to spread successfully on b.net, and those who wish to play it offline will lose interest most quickly of all simply because they cant do anything after the first 10 seconds.

Its your map and you can do what your want with it. I'm just giving you a strong suggestion to make the map playable for more varying number of players so people may have longer interest in it. It may take much out of the intensity and action if you reduce the spawns or whatnot, but personally I would imagine higher numbers of people successfully playing the map would be more important.
-VGsatomi

CHUNK

2006-07-06

So when ability named "Zzz" have hotkey (Z) and secone one named "Yyy" have hotkey (Y) then it's correct by your logic, even if these two keys are quite far from themselves? You've used hotkeys : A,R,G,F,D,C,W . I would suggest some like Z,X,C,V,Q,W,E,R. It was actually far easier to click on icon by mouse then press it's hotkey. Just suggestion...

If I had used keys that were arranged ALPQNMZY, then your claim might have some merit, but the fact that my keys are actually closer together, placed by how (and how frequently) the abilities are used, and require the use of fewer fingers than the ones you've suggested tells me that your argument is equivocable. Your comments lead me to believe that you think my hotkeys were chosen because of the names of the abilities they were paired with, but in fact, I chose the names of my abilities to match the hotkeys I had selected. The arrangement is intentional and, in fact, much more deliberate than your random arrangment of buttons next to each other on rows separated by home row.

For example: F and C are kicks, they both have knockback, they both have the potential to harm/stun allies, they are right next to each other, but separated by a row/finger, so as not to confuse whether you are kicking all around you or just in front of you. FGCR are all instantaneous attacks, they are all placed on the right side, ADW are all point or unit targets, they are all located on the left side. ('A' doesn't even need to be used, considering right-click as been designed to automatically use this ability for you). W is the only ability that uses mana, using it is associated with a high cost, it is separated by a row and designated to a different finger than all of the other buttons (which are set up to be accessed by the same two fingers). The most commonly used abilities, aside from right-clicks, would be RDFC - it's much more natural to use those keys than ZXCV.

As you can see, much more thought has gone into my arrangement of hotkeys than yours, yet you feel comfortable labeling them as "horrible". If you don't know where the letters ADFGRWC are without looking, you need more practice typing. I view your comments as being trivial, without merit, and based upon standards of your own personal preferences, which are in no way based upon "logic" or ability usage and would almost certainly be more awkward for most players.

Despite my own impressions of your suggestions, I asked 5 other people who played the game (without explaining why) if the hotkeys were in any way unnatural or difficult to use - and not one of them had a complaint.

The worst part about this discussion is that of all of the merits and flaws of this game, some of which were politely pointed out by VG, you chose to focus on the hotkey arrangement. There are bigger fish to fry if you are just looking for something to complain about. The hotkeys will stay where they are.

SnaKy

2006-07-06

set up correctly

So when ability named "Zzz" have hotkey (Z) and secone one named "Yyy" have hotkey (Y) then it's correct by your logic, even if these two keys are quite far from themselves? You've used hotkeys : A,R,G,F,D,C,W . I would suggest some like Z,X,C,V,Q,W,E,R. It was actually far easier to click on icon by mouse then press it's hotkey. Just suggestion...

CHUNK

2006-07-05

Normally I would have a lot of good things to say about this map, however you made it one of those "must havea full house to do jack squat" maps which I utterly detest. I'd recommend adding a condition check before your spawn trigger that checks how many players are playing before judging how many enemies to spawn.

While I can agree with your sentiments, VG, your solution is invalid. I think you can reason out that reducing the monster pool to match the player numbers isn't going to solve much, because there are too many other variables. I can adapt a solution that will fix it, but simply spawning fewer demons wouldn't make the game more playable with fewer players, it would make it less intense, less interesting, and would take away quite a bit from the gameplay, in my opinion.

To be honest, a more appropriate mechanism for scalability is already in place, but it hasn't been implemented yet, for several reasons, including: I haven't had enough playtesting support to set the scales up effectively, I'm still working on tweaking how they would work, and, most importantly, I wanted to make team play an important aspect of the map.

Even on easy mode is just impossible with too few players.

I disagree somewhat. To hedge a little, the gameplay is certainly set up for 4 players, but even with 4 people, the game is very difficult at first - even on the Beginner difficulty. We tested this map about 10 times a day with a full house (games are short when you lose quickly) for a week or so and once the game balance started to even out, and players became used to playing with each other and we started working as a team, we went from not able to beat Beginner to beating it on Flawless in about 2 days. But if we can beat it on Flawless with 4 people, I suspect it is possible to beat it on Beginner with 3, even without the scaled gameplay - although you'd probably need people who were capable of winning it on Flawless with 4.

But, to be frank, I don't think I want the game to be winnable with only 2 (normal human) players on Flawless. It's obviously not that I think it is hard to do mechanically, but rather my game concept for this particular game is that players work together as a team. The fewer players you have, the less that feeling of requiring a team of good people to win exists when you play. A team of 4 or 3 players isn't a huge burden, though.

I've played your other maps and I know you are an excellent mapper, well beyond good enough to be able to make self-adjusting difficulty to cater to how many players are present.

Thanks for the compliment, I guess, but please consider my intentions with this map. I have made 7 of my own maps and this is the first of those that simply cannot be played solo. In this case, I don't see how it can be seen as a flaw, when it is part of the design. You cannot, for example, play an AoS with 1 or 2 people - so it would seem a bit untoward to approach it as though it were flawed because of that.

As I mentioned, I am still working on it. I have some ideas for continuing the concept into a series of sorts, with other heroes and equally interesting abilities in different gameplay concepts, but we had so much fun playing the map with 4 people that I decided it was good enough to release it as it was.

I'm not sure what your target team-size is, but I don't think I will ever scale it in such a way that it can be played solo on all difficulties, because I feel that goes against the concept. The next version may compensate for fewer players a little better than it does now, however.

VGsatomi

2006-07-05

Normally I would have a lot of good things to say about this map, however you made it one of those "must havea full house to do jack squat" maps which I utterly detest. I'd recommend adding a condition check before your spawn trigger that checks how many players are playing before judging how many enemies to spawn. Even on easy mode is just impossible with too few players.

I've played your other maps and I know you are an excellent mapper, well beyond good enough to be able to make self-adjusting difficulty to cater to how many players are present.

Terrain: Perfect
Theme: Excellent
Spells: Excllent
Originality: Great
Rouph edges: Perfect
Use of imported material: Well done
Playability: Not so great

-VGsatomi

CHUNK

2006-07-05

the hotkeys were horrible

What is that supposed to mean? The hotkeys are set up correctly and they are designed for the left hand, so you do not need to use your mouse-hand to click them. They are also home row, with "power" moves being one row off. If you are going to make a comment like saying something is "horrible", at least bother to explain what you mean.

SnaKy

2006-07-05

I've tested it with friend of mine and the hotkeys were horrible, otherwise it was nice and smooth. The abilities were well done.

SnaKy

2006-07-03

Seems to be decent. I Gotta test it someday!

CHUNK

2006-07-03

The Way of Desolation

In this game, your objective is to escort the helpless spirit of your dead sister through a dark path in Hell known as the Way of Desolation. Your sister's spirit is, however easily distracted, being drawn to any nearby light source. You can, however, use this to your advantage, by selectively destroying light sources along the path to guide your sister's spirit towards the Soulgate that leads out of Hell.

Your four living sisters and you have made this dangerous journey, knowing that the odds are against you. If your sister's spirit is lost, along with it goes all hope for your clan of ninjas - she must pass through the Soulgate at all costs.

You, along with three companions, have an arsenal of powerful kicks, jumps, and cuts at your disposal. You wield a sword in each hand and are capable of amazing leaps, powerful kicks, and even a little magic. Beware, however, many of your attacks will not discriminate between your sister's spirit, your companions, and enemy demons, which are constantly swarming around you in an attempt to destroy any spirits attempting to leave Hell and return to the living and you must recover health and mana by collecting the energies of enemies and obstacles that you destroy.

3 levels of difficulty. Recommended for 4 players who are willing to work together. The map was designed to be a hybrid game, inspired by console actions games Ninja Gaiden and Otogi.

Note: All of the custom models in this map were downloaded from this site. Proper credit for all of these incredible models, many of which are essential to the theme of this map (particularly those of the Ninja and Spirit designed by Black_Stan), has been given in the map's directions (F9). Special thanks to Clan TDG members KrewL RaiN for the terrain touch-up and Shvegait for additions to the combat system.

[url=http://www.jx3.net/TDG/Mapathon/08-Escort/TheWayOfDesolationv1-6.w3x]The Way of Desolation[/url] (alternate download link) began as an entry in the Clan TDG Mapathon contest series based upon the word "Escort". The prototype of this map, which was essentially the same with fewer features and abilities, was designed for this contest in one (long) night.

Feel free to direct comments and report bugs to the Clan TDG forum: http://www.jx3.net/TDG/forum/

The Way of Desolation

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