I Feel Sorry for you Americans...

Europe is reigned by Dota? No?

Dota only "reign" late at night else theres lots of other games

DotA is ok as a means of relaxation after some intense ladder game.
Nothing more.

How can one call it strategy, if there are much better in every way laddergames?

People, instead of making new clones of Dota, should think about making a real RPG, at least trying.

Metal, you are forgetting the mentality of such mappers.

Making RPGs requires effort...

Ripping a dota clone doesnt...

Lazy said mappers have allergic reactions to effort. (I've seen it...tell a DotA mapper that he has to spend more then 10 minutes on a map and he'll start breaking out in hives and couph up blood....its UGLY!)

So put 2 and 2 together, and you get....

Yep making a dota close is an easy way of getting your name out ^^


Theres sooo many crappy aos/dota games x_x

I don't like Guinsoo because he doesn't give the credit...

-Spells
In Darky's Chain Frost spell, he wrote "give me credit for this spell if you use it on your map".

Did he gave credit? = No

Icefrog used many of Vexorian's spells, did he gave the amount of credit he should have given? = No

-Map Itself
Totally stealed; as some people said, dota is just a copy of the original DotA by Eul (I can't remember his name right now, if i'm not correct about his name).

And yes, I play DotA. Through Leoric (skeleton king) and some other company are imba. I will tell you why.

Leoric (Skeleton King)

Imba Ultimate, Reincarnacion. Just get one or two hearts of tarrasque and he owns. And if he doesn't, buy everything for refresher orb, which means you have to kill him 3 times.

Lucifer (Doom Bringer, or something like that -.-)

Imba Ultimate too. All the other spells become useless in later game. Devour? Why? You can gain more money if you kill the creep yourself. It is only handy when the enemy Ancient of War/Crypt is destroyed. LVL?Death.... lol... it's only a matter of time... it will become useless soon... can only be used at start for making the first pawns. And that fire thingy spell... can be used to give a hit or two in a running hero... but let's go back to the point; Doom is imba. Why? Because 120 damage over 18 seconds, kills a hero, that's for sure. Specially ranged heroes, who don't have much Strength and don't buy Soul Booster. Okay let's count with the hero spell reduction... Takes almost 100 damage, it's imba anyway. 100 X 18 = 1800 damage.... ~no comments~

Sven (Rougue Knight)
Almost impossible to own him later. Just get him a Satanic, with 23% life steal and use his ultimate. GG! And if the hero tries to run use hammer...


Those that were refered, I don't think they can match these ones. These heroes have a 15% chance that they won't own in the game. Lucifer has more than that, but not much. And Lion is not imba. He is imba at start, yes, but becomes crap later. Through Impale + Hex give him less chance to be killed, he will have to face ownage in his face sooner or later. Traxex is only imba if you don't own her at start.

-Rui

You know, if you want to go back and forth and refute arguments. Its usualy a good idea to have some evidence to support your claim. You're first point had a claim, but it was incorrect:

Ok. I was playing a game of DotA, and I thought I'd use that satyr unit from the Night Elves. My 'role in combat' is clearly a lone one, assassinating lone heroes and whatnot.

I find myself up against a sole water elemental reskin named 'Enigma'. No matter how many times I get a back attack in, no matter how many allies I pull from other lanes (even with 2 other heroes, he still couldn't be killed), no matter what I did, he'd just stand there continually casting Death and Decay. And a stupidly strong version at that. Now, I used my hero as he was ment to be played and still got nowhere. His items were no better than mine and I still lost.

you say that your role is a lone one, which is incorrect, at least for the first half of the game. Your job is to sneak up behind other heroes while you are permanently invisable and take them by surprise with help from your teammates slowing them with your cloud, if you couldn't take him out with 2 other heroes, then your team was either fighting him right next to a tower, or was not doing their job properly. In addition, Rikki maru is not an early game hero, where as enigma is. Late in the game, Enigma becomes significatly more weak, and riki maru significantly stronger. This is usualy the case with agility and inteligence based heroes.

I don't think you understand, there IS no destinction between blacklist and banlist, banlist is; not. a. word.

oh no I understand perfectly. But what on earth does that have anything to do with dota?

The map is messy, what more do you want?

perhaps an example? the map looks pretty clean to me. please correct me if I am wrong, with a convincing argument.

Really? You must be worse at DotA than I am. 90% of items in DotA have no use.

ok, so tell me. What items do you deem unbalanced and what items do you deem useless? because really, you shouldn't be buying the same item everytime, you need different items for different situations depedning on what hero you are and hat heroes you are up against. For example, you should have gotten a ring of health with rikki maru if you ere up against a ranged inteligence heor like enigma. Enigma should have no buisness killing you with invis and a ring of health. The ring of health will let your level up quickly, enabling you to stay in battle longer and soak up more experience.

I think I'll stand by my origional comment.

why should I believe your original statement if you have no evidence to support your claim?

How many games of DotA have you played? The combine feature takes a good minute of combat time every time you have to search for that damn combination item. The game lasts say, 45 min so that's just over 2% of your play time JUST to combine a single item. God only knows how much it'd add up to in a full match...

If you know where the recipie is, and what items you need for it, you can combine your items in town before you are done healing. Infact, you can be working on your different combine items and build them slowly throughout the game, gaining partial benefits from the components until you have enough money to complete the combined item.

You can master the item combination system in DotA with ease but not see that the terrain is crap?

I guess not. However, at least I back up what I say with a valid point.

The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
Nuff said.

I was refering to your use of "stratergy" as opposed to "strategy"

Indeed, see #1

Again, those heroes are balanced, you just don't seem to realize that different heroes are more powerful at different times in the game. Generaly speaking, early, mid, and late. Riki maru is a Late game hero, where as enigma is an early to mid game hero. Meaning, you wont be very successful going up against enigma early game. next time, try swithcing lanes with someone and fight some weak ranged agi hero.

Getting good at DotA takes 2 games. Play the first and take note as to what heroes are horribly imbalanced, and on the second game play as them.

try joining non-public games, and see how well you do with all your "imbalanced" heroes. I also find it interesting that you say that dota has a steep learning curve, and the item systems is cumbersome, yet you say that you can become good at dota after 2 games. you seem to be contradicting yourself.

I have no idea what those are. If finding them gives any kind of combat advantage, then they shouldn't be in there.

If you don't know what those are, then it is fairly obvious you don't understand how dota works on a larger scale and therefore your acusations and claims that dota is a horrible game are unfounded through lack of expereience with the game.

I don't want this to degenerate into a flame war, so for my part I'm going to end on this afterword

I agree, I dislike flamewars, so far this has been a civil conversation. If you do not wish to respond, that is fine.

If you like DotA then so be it. I don't go around DotA games bashing people in them, so I don't expect any DotA fan to bash the DotA haters in a DotA hater's thread. Deal?

Ok, If you find satisfaction in bashing dota with other dota haters without any opposition, then I apologize and I will leave you to your dota hating thread. However, realize that this thread was posted on a "maps" forums which reads "Want to share your great map? Come here to discuss a map or get general map and triggering help." I am disscussing a great map, but out of courtousy to you, I will not post in your thread anymore. Unless you would like to discuss this map further, which I would be more than happy to do. Because I am a mapper myself, I would love to know why you think the terrain is crap and messy, and how you think it could be improved.

About that discussion of banlist, I will give my opinion. I've heard that banlist bans you from that server BUT i've been banlisted about 10 times, but I could always play dota. If it bans me in THAT host, then let me laugh.

-Rui

I agree Rui, I don't like the fact that he does not give credit for borrowed materials. But those spells and abilities are still great, and the map is still a good map. I think that dota shoudl give credit where credit is due, but that does no bring down the quality of the map. If anything, those great spells improve its quality.

You make some very good points Rui. I agree that leoric can turn into a monster, no doubt. But he can still be stopped. His reincarnation has become more balanced now, through the dota team's numourous updates in order to add new content and fix balance issues. Now leoric's reincarnation has a mana cost to it, and if you don't hace enough mana at your time of death, you will not revive.

Lucy, I don't think he is that imbalanced, his melee attacks are very slow, most people play him as a caster, the only thing he has going for him is his doom, I don't think its overpowered, its just easier for people to use since you dont' have to think to much when you use it "point click doom". The ability itself however, isn't imbalanced. and it doens't kill a hero for sure, you ned to take into account all the life regen and armor/magic resistance that character has. not to mention, that doom has one of the longest refresh timers in the game.

Sven is a late game hero, no doubt about it, he is a beast. The way you have to deal with this guy is to harass him early game and do your best to make sure he doesn't level. Ontop of that, getting a scythe of vice and other disables will help emensely against this guy. again however, sven is another one of those easy heroes to play. Other heroes are much more difficult to play, but can be just as dangerous to the other team.


I will say this right now, that dota is not perfect, there are imbalances, yes. But Dota is the single most upkept and updated map that I know about, with a team of people who continualy balance the game, adding content, and making it more interesting with more heroes. No game could ever obtain "true balance" unless each team were given identical resources. Which, in the warcraft world is impossible. The job of a the game designer is to make it as balanced as they possibly can, I think dota does a good job of this.

RuiAbout that discussion of banlist, I will give my opinion. I've heard that banlist bans you from that server BUT i've been banlisted about 10 times, but I could always play dota. If it bans me in THAT host, then let me laugh.

-Rui

the way it works, is the host adds you to a local banlist (meaning that you will be flagged if you join his game again) however, the banlist program allows you to download other host's banlist and use them. So if you get your name on one banlist, you may end up on several others through banlist sharing. In reality though, it is pretty ineffective. Its used mostly as a deterant for leavers, but I think that deterant has run out lol.

ye people dont really care about banlist, its pretty useless...

The one that i hate in dota is if a player gain more kills at the beginning of game, he obviously will own, and if a player had bad performance on the beginning, he obviously will lose. There are small chance of counter attack to happen if a team already owned by the other. That's lack of intensity.

Only a marginal amount of Dota's material was ever worth even glancing at. And that very material wasn't his. I recall something from about 4 months ago where Guinsoo was failing college just to make an effort to update his map. And his update? "Many of the popular heros have been nerfed," in a positive manner.

Recipes, only somewhat impressive. How the fool managed to create 60 or so triggers just to create items is beyond me.

And take this for example. The heroes in this wretched game tend to kill each other in a matter of seconds. Seconds, I tell you. Nothing is supposed to die so quickly. Not to mention bonuses to about 100 damage. I severely doubt Guinsoo has any idea of what an RTS is about. Warcraft is not an RPG, at least 1-3. If I didn't know any better, I think the idiot didn't have any idea how much even 15 damage does. An average battle in an AoS game lasts around 45 seconds. Let's say the hero is level 6, and already does around 40 damage a second. 40x45= somewhere over 1,600. Add 15 damage, and that's 55 damage a second, times 45. That's even more. But adding 100 damage means you would singe-handedly slay a whole army in those 45 seconds. And RTS game is not about instant kills an in an RPG. It's about a longer time, where chaos reigns and you must manage your forces correctly.

And honestly, the majority of the community that plays the game is even worse. Half of them act like pubescent drunks that think they rule the world, mocking and such. And then you have the game engine itself, which acts like the stupidest of CS servers, forcing you to download 500 kb of sound files for their specialized versions of UT2003 sounds. Then you have those people who just ban and ban many others.

Even worse, is the making of LoaP. I will say this again: Warcraft 3 is an RTS game. It is something where you manage an army anddestroy your foe. If you want to make a game of the Sims, you better make a damn good replica. Not some half-assed thing with missing features because you slacked off at a night party and ended up at the hospital the next morning.

And onto map copying. People think that because they change one JASS word in some mumbo jumbo they don't know, and end up causing the game to crash, they think they are a genius, release the map under their name, and believe that they will become popular. In fact, they are just most likely people with no social lives and have to live with the mask of a screen name, sitting there on the computer trying to gain any sort of social status in an electronic society where anyone can be anything. This little ad here could inject you with 500 kilograms of pure spyware, when it just appeared to be some game cheat site for the most lewd and violent of games.

What even pisses me more off, is where I live. I'm a Canadian, and moved here to America, only to watch, for almost 7 years now, society deteriorate into wasteland. You have all these juvenile dilenquents that need to be arrested and persecuted for life, so that our school can actually have better ratings. In fact, if I didn't "transfer" into a different district, I was gonna have to learn from a school that didn't have a certified english program, a multitude of possible drug users and gang members, and much, much more.

And Draqz, that's your opinion. If you don't like how we "bash" DotA, then stay out of the thread. We might be exaggerating a slight bit about the problems of the game, but those parts of the game are what aggravate us.

And to the person who made this thread, it is true. When I still had played warcraft, over half of the game were DotA, LoaP and such, and those good games like EotA had smarter, more strategic, and a more polite playing community. Dota just has a bunch of random maniacs whose only desire is to kill stuff, and get a false euphoria. Not to mention all the flaming that goes around when someone picks the best heros.

It was be a miracle if DotA got a more professionalized staff, most likely consisting of members from this site, because a more kindred if you will, society would be more aware of the needs, not some recruited person out of a google website search.

And Draqz, that's your opinion. If you don't like how we "bash" DotA, then stay out of the thread. We might be exaggerating a slight bit about the problems of the game, but those parts of the game are what aggravate us.

yes, it is my opinion. And its not that I have a problem with people who bash dota. I just don't like blind bashing without reason. Tell me why it sucks and then we can go from there.

I have heard several arguments to why the map is bad, and most have some merrit. I just don't like to see "yeah i hate dota! it suckzorz! imba imba imba!!!!"

What it all boils down to is preference. If you like longer encounters and battles, then maybe dota isn't a map for you. But just because you don't like it, does not make it a poor map. I still think it holds its own as a balanced and fun game that takes skill and practice to get good at.

Take music for example, I dislike most country/bluegrass music, but when I see someone play some bluegrass on a banjo, I simply can't deny the skill it takes to play bluegrass and that it is indeed a respectbale musicform. I can say things like "this music is too fast paced and far to clangy for my tastes" but I can't say that the music "sucks".

The wrongful stealing of spells, models, and skins is not right. An absolute disgrace to the community and a slap in the face of those who so willingly submitted their creations believing that they would be rightfully used. Stupid and ignorant are the players of DotA.

while i will concede that in DotA it is possible to beat someone using combos that are waaay imba without using an imba combo of ur own, there are too many of said imba combos, not to mention that the despicable juggernaut that is DotA does not make way for good games

anyways, here's some reasons DotA is imba
1 - first time i played DotA Allstars, someone on sentinel was a hero that would kill my little transparent warden girl WITHOUT MY BEING ABLE TO SEE SAID HERO. i'm relatively sure he was more than a bit past the towers and he would snipe me for INSTANT OHKO. also, i was 100% TRANSPARENT. you have to be smarter than the average bear to not only notice but figure out that a free-standing shadow = warden girl
2 - TOWER RUSHING. AoS maps aren't supposed to have towers with only 1300ish hp, ANY heavy melee can take that out in first wave of troops! in ANY wortwhile AoS game (Advent of the Zenith, Land of Legends II, even tiny quick Water War - Submerged) YOU CANNOT TOWER RUSH.
in Advent you don't want to go NEAR a tower before level 10 unless you're one badass melee hero, and in LoL II the towers' hp increase by 150 or so every certain time interval. the exception would be that in Water War - Submerged you can are two items on the map that give +10 (maybe +20) stackable armour bonus.

now for some stuff about DotA hosts
1 - i saw WAAAAYY too many games with DL = BAN or NO DL when i first started playing warcraft, and even now i wouldn't be surprised if dlers were told to go online & find it before recieving the boot
2 - "DOTA (version) NO NUBS" or PROS ONLY
well wtf u were a nub once how did u get pro? by joining pros only games and hoping they wouldn't notice you using ur hero as a hero and not a weapon?
if u actually want "pros" that don't use nub combos and u put PROS ONLY in the game name, ur not going to step very far in the direction you're hoping for.

now for some stuff on what you were arguing about
1 - "steep learning curve" implies that you actually intend to learn how to play the game and derive ACTUAL enjoyment from it. figuring out which heros pwn ass does not qualify as "learning"
2 - spellcasters ARE NOT MEANT TO TAKE DOWN OTHER HEROES. if a single spellcaster is taking down more than one hero and at least one of the heros isn't nubing off THAT SPELLCASTER SHOULD DIE, TOWER OR NO. the towers in DotA are laughably weak, especially when you can have an ASSASSIN hero rushing them. i know from personal experience that single spellcasters DO NOT MAKE GOOD HERO KILLERS. hero killer spellcaster = imba UNLESS said spellcaster has one wicked long stealth time or is particularly hard to click on.
3 - the diff between blacklist and banlist is that ppl that use banlist do NOT BOTHER to check up on their grammar, spelling, w/e aspect of the english language. this is more of a shot at DotA hosts
4 - if you can walk back into the SEPARATED hero selection area, it's a messy map.
5 - the hero that killed my transparent warden girl had one badass bow thing, and i think he was a rifleman. so even when he wasn't ultying me to death he was killing me before i could get close enough to scratch his not-so-shiny cloak
6 - haha problem with the recipe thing - IF YOU KNOW WHERE THE RECIPE AND WHAT ITEMS YOU NEED FOR IT. "Learning Curve".
7 - in one game, i learned that there is no "strategy" in DotA, only tower rushing and avoiding bigger heros. if you call that strategy, then i guess i'm wrong.
8 - if a hero is imbalanced at the beginning of the game, it's not getting any weaker, and isn't going to die unelss OTHER heroes become unbalanced at the end
9 - see #1 about the learning curve.
10 - about needing to know about stuff, the BEST items are off in hidey holes in the middle of the forest and are a good 20-60 seconds away from fights. and some of those items are required for the Üßë® H4x0rx item combos.

i don't mind that DotA is popular, i mind that it is the ONLY GAME PPL JOIN/HOST
like i'll host LoL II and DotA nubs that use imba combos in DotA will say "DOTA CLONE DOTA CLONE" a few mintues into the game.
A) no it IS NOT a DotA clone, not as many imba heroes, not as many imba combos, you can't rush towers, no "combining" for uber items, badass combos are STOPPABLE as well as possible to execute without pwning ass, creeps are there to stop u from doing things and not to make you giggle, people don't blatantly rip off LoL II and say it's their own map, LoL II actually requires more than running from bigger heroes, LoL II has a sniper on sentinel but he's not going to kill you every time you're within shooting distance
B) LoL II has better heroes, only a few of which are imba that have NOT been fixed the latest in version (i think 1.24 is the latest i have)
C) LoL II is different on too many levels to be a DotA clone

DotA is poisoning the minds of retards on BNet! as everyone here should know, there are a LOT of people a few points short of 100 on BNet...